Passover Requirements :)?

Question

My friend and I made a bet. He thinks that passover is really easy to do but i say that its annoying to not eat bread. He is not Jewish but we made a bet that he couldnt last the whole passover fallowing all hte eating requirements. If he caves i get 10 dollars but if he doesnt, he gets ten.

What arent u allowed to eat on passover is you are a Reformed Jew?
just give a list
thank youu

Answer 1

Are you trying to refer to Reform Jews? ( it's not Reformed, we're still Jews)

I won't aide in this "bet" because Pesach is one of the most important observances of Judaism and you are making a mockery of it.



If you are not Jewish, this holy observance is not commanded of you to observe . Jews are required by direct commandment in the Torah to keep the Passover observance for an eternal memorial. Passover (Pesach in Hebrew) is the celebration of the deliverance of the eternal covenant nation Israel, the Hebrews, from the yolk of idolatry, superstition, and physical slavery in Egypt. It was a reaffirmation of their identity as a nation dedicated to God through Torah and our memorial reaffirms this for each generation. . The events we retell at Passover were demonstration to Egypt that their deities were false and their man/god Pharoah impotent to God's power.

It is a very important part of Judaism and many central aspects of our identity as an eternal covenant nation are embedded in it's observance.

Each of you take your 10 dollars and donate it to a charity. That way you both come out winners by doing a good thing with your money and time rather than trivilaizing something important and meaningful to another people. You might be surprised how far $20 can go to a good cause.

shalom

*PRACTICING* Reform Jews most certainly observe Pesach, including removing chametz from our homes. I wish people would confine their answers to providing real information rather than guesses or opinion

edit: one word to bachrach

shanda

Oy gevalt...someone else telling a life long Reform Jew what Reform Jews do that does certainly does not fit all of us or what I've lived practicing Reform Judaism my whole life ( I'm 50 btw). And to Gershon..this bet does not appear to be someone with the intent that you portray, no where was there mention of attempt to observe passover, but just following the restriction on a WAGER, ..and YOU of all people should know that *I* have NEVER EVER discouraged a non Jew from studying Torah, in fact..your path of exploring Torah, according to what YOU said to me on more than one occasion, began with words from ME. I'm simply astonished that your response would even insinuate that I discouraged another from learning about the Torah!

HUNDREDS of my answers here have encouraged people to read the Torah in context and I've spent countless hours trying to help clear up misconceptions people have...including misconceptions people have about Reform Judaism ( some appear to think the early Reformers ways are what we still follow from more than 100 years ago rather than the return to a much more traditional form of Judaism that's been taking place over the past 70 years progressively)

I've found it interesting to discover that in the majority of the questions about Judaism, one finds great congruence in the answers of what Jews believe..but how we are to observe custom and ritual is where we often part company. I suppose it is because most of the Orthodox I connect with offline are family who also are connected to other Reform Jews, it was a shock to me when I came to Yahoo to find a number of Orthodox Jews who have almost as much misconception about Reform Judaism as the Christian does about Judaism! ( that is NO exaggeration)

I am not sure what PJ's was trying to say telling me that yes there are reformist Jews. I was correcting the asker's mistaken use of the term "Reformed" Jew, rather than saying Reform Jew.

I still maintain my belief that taking a bet with someone that they can't abide by the dietary laws for Pesach ..whose objective would be to win the bet, not focus on the meaning...does not equate with the more noble aspect of seeking to practice or adopt a behavior that can lead one to Torah. That is why I suggested an activity that CAN actually lead one to Torah..charity.

I'd like to give PJ both a thumb up and a thumb down..lol..part of his answer I agree with entirely, another part partially but I part big time when he begins speaking of Reform Judaism...the part about Reform simply is foreign to what I know as a practicing Reform Jew, and know from my Grandmother's books and my mother's books on Judaism from a Reform perspective.. It appears that for too many, the secular non practicing Jew who doesn't live much of anything Jewish or know anything about Judaism is what they equate with Reform Judaism, and that is simply not the case as to what Reform Judaism is about, at all!

Shalom

OH..another reason why it is absurd for me to see someone think I discourage a non-Jew from Torah..while I've never tried to convert anyone..

I am married to a non Jew and have had non-Jews share almost every seder I've ever attended or held in my home! My husband lives as a Noachide, despite not liking any labels..it fits what he is.

edit to PJ's..Again, a portion of your edit I will agree with, and a portion I do not if you think that it is something that supports the view of yours that I found did not represent Reform Judaism today to begin with. You either misread or mistakenly believe that what I said reflected a narrow opinion, when I was in fact, trying to point out that there are often narrow views of what Reform Judaism is and finds acceptable practice that is NOT reflected in the last two Platforms. I agree with the statement of yours I quote here wholeheartedly, and that's one reason I found fault with your view, in fact, that I saw as quite narrow and based soley on opinion of what Reform Judaism represented more than a hundred years ago.

"Reform Judaism cannot be defined by your personal practices and beliefs nor your husbands or any one Reform Rabbi. Neither from a specific Reform community or thought." I certainly agree with that!

You also mentioned another view that is a valid place Reform and Orthodox part company, too. Most of Orthodox Judaism does not wish to admit that it has also changed over the millenia, introducing new customs and practices to honor the same Torah precepts, but adapting them as necessary to new paradigms. Reform openly embraces and acknowledges this, and we teach the history of such changes that happened even long before Reform ( for example the Tu B'Shvat seder introduced by the Kabbalistic sages of Safed in the 1400s) and there are current raging debates within Reform ( such as over cremation ) as to what practice may or may not be acceptable and why and many of us have introduced new practices, such as Miriam's cup to honor her role and that of other women in the Exodus. Personal and community opinions there do matter for the particular Reform community and for Reform to come to a concensus of what is or is not acceptable.

What I found fault with originally was that an answer here was to say that it is ACCEPTABLE to Reform Judaism itself to NOT honor Passover laws. That is not true..Reform Judaism recognizes that not all jews WILL observe laws and that does not make them less of a Jew. How is this different than Orthodox, except to acknoweldge that it happens? (Orthodox Judaism accepts as Jews those who don't practice at all as well )I've never seen a Reform Jewish publication, any Rabbinic teaching or Hagaddah that said it was OK not to clean your home of chometz or that it is OK to eat it on Passover for example. Reform isn't trying to change Judaism to something different than Judaism, but to honor the Torah in a changing world.

I hope any who are interested, explore Reform Judaism as it is today, visit a synagogue or two and read Reform Judaism magazine and other publications.

I've been involved in Jewish education for many years with the Reform community, not only for my own tiny community, but involved with other Jewish educators in Reform across the southern United States, so I'm well aware of what is and what is not mainstream Reform Judaism. I've many references available to you if you wish. Shalom.

edit: As to the non Jew and passover..while my husband, a non-Jew is at every seder I have in my home and will of course be there this year..he is not an idolator..so it's a grey area there in my mind as to it's acceptability by halacha...but because he has helped me to raise our son AS a Jew..I honor his presence and he honors our being Jewish and observing the Passover as God commands to the Jewish people. I also grew up with non-Jewish friends attending seders both at our home and a few of the community seders we held at the synagogue. As other answers of mine here reflect, I agree entirely that the Passover is only commanded of Jews because the Passover story has much in it that defines who and what Jews ARE, it is about our separation from idolatry and a culture obsessed with the afterlife as well as emancipation from slavery and if the focus is shifted to accomodate those for whom these messages would offend, we are disobeying the eternal commandment and our purpose as Jews in the world.

Shalom

The rest here is copied from the current Platform of Reform Judaism

We are committed to the ongoing study of the whole array of (mitzvot) and to the fulfillment of those that address us as individuals and as a community. Some of these (mitzvot), sacred obligations, have long been observed by Reform Jews; others, both ancient and modern, demand renewed attention as the result of the unique context of our own times.

We bring Torah into the world when we seek to sanctify the times and places of our lives through regular home and congregational observance. Shabbat calls us to bring the highest moral values to our daily labor and to culminate the workweek with (kedushah), holiness, (menuchah), rest and (oneg), joy. The High Holy Days call us to account for our deeds. The Festivals enable us to celebrate with joy our people's religious journey in the

Answer 2

This not a flame nor trolling - IT IS THE TRUTH - YOU ARE NOT A JEW. YOU ARE NOT CELEBRATING PESACH, your group twists the holy day and celebrations. answer: claiming to be a Jew when you are NOT is disrespectful and insulting. Inviting Christians to share in your twisted version of Pesach and then wanting to deny any who aren't part of the JEWISH eternal covenant with G-d is insulting, disrespectful and dishonest. Exposing good Christians to dishonesty, dishonorable and disrespecting rituals that are an affront to Jews and G-d is abhorrent. It doesn't matter if your Christian friends are circumcised or not (or you either) - none of you are Jews and the circumcision was NOT done as part of the Jewish covenant with G-d. You have a different covenant, stop disrespecting Judaism, G-d and Jews and go be happy with your own holy days. No one that estranged from the Jewish community can partake in Passover - the small number of 'messies' that WERE Jewish are Jewish no longer and forbidden to celebrate Passover. Sincere Christians are welcome to celebrate with us as long as they leave Jesus/Yeshua/whatever at the door. He has no part in the Passover celebrations and equating him with the sacrificial lamb is disgusting - G-d states HE abhors human sacrifice and does not become human.

Answer 3

That's a tricky question - Reform Jews do not believe in the authority of the law, therefore it is not incumbent upon them to keep _any_ of the laws of Passover. A reform Jew could, in all good conscience, eat bread on Passover and be fine with it.



This however doesn't make for a very good bet. The key biblical restriction is to not eat any foods made with wheat, barley, oats, rye, or spelt. (In the last 1000 years or so many other foods have been added to that list, but you seem to be looking for just the basic requirement). Basically anything with flour in it that isn't matzah is out. Most reform Jews who want to observe the laws of Passover follow this level of observance.



If, on the other hand, you want to win the bet easily, :-) insist that your friend keep the rules of Passover as an Orthodox Jew would - that means no food which isn't certified kosher for passover, and eliminates everything from flour and rice to high fructose corn syrup and peanut butter. You can find the Orthodox Union's guide to Passover here:

http://oukosher.org/images/uploads/PESACH_09.pdf

Answer 4

passover is serious and believe me he is never going to win so basically you can't eat anything that doesn't have a kosher for passover symbol or sign on it or says kosher for passover

Answer 5

Ok a non-Jews should NOT keep Pesach. In fact, many Poskim explictly forbid a non-Jew from participating in the Pesach seder! Halachicly- whereas there are many sacrifices a non-Jew is allowed to bring in the Temple, there is one there is one they are completely forbidden to bring- the Korban Pesach. not only is a non-jew not allwoed to bring a Korban Pesach- they are not allowed to even share in the eating of one, even if they would help to make sure that nothing would remain overnight!



As for the story of the Baal Shem Toc- it is referring to kiruv, a Jew being brought back into Judaism, NOT TO A CONVERT!

Answer 6

This is a rare case where I'll disagree with my Jewish friends. Perhaps this bet is the beginning of the yearnings of their Jewish soul to become Jewish. Conversion has to begin someplace.



For most, it starts with just one mitzvah. Sometimes a simple one like washing hands before meals. Or a real simple one like being kinder to other people.



The Baal Shem Tov told a story about G-d showing him the person who observed the Shabbat the best in the whole world. It was a Jewish man by birth whose parents had been killed when he was very young. He was raised by a non-Jewish family.



The Baal Shem Tov was brought to his home on Shabbat. All he saw was a party that lasted all afternoon and into the evening with no evidence of Torah study or anything else to do with G-d. The Baal Shem Tov finally asked what the party was about. The man said his parents were Jewish and all he remembered was they had family and friends over to their house every Shabbat.



If your intent is to follow the Passover rules and to somehow become closer to G-d, I suspect it will be judged to be a better Passover than that of a Jewish person who was raised in a Jewish home.



All of us are on a journey. One point on a line shouldn't consider itself superior to a point further down the line as the length of the line is infinite. My little point is nothing compared to infinity. One day, after death, I'll become reunited somehow with that infinity. For now, I agree with Rambam, who says every concept we have about G-d is wrong.



Shalom,



Gershon



PJ's, the Rambam goes to great lengths in "The Guide for the Perplexed" that we should never state what G-d "is." We can only state what our perception is. As we have a limited perception of the infinite, to even state what G-d "is" is forbidden as it is limiting G-d.



Given this, how do you know how G-d perceives a potential convert on their very first desire to follow just one mitzvah in the Torah? You are very mistaken if you feel non-Jews cannot try to follow the mitzvot. The only thing non-Jews are bound by is the 7 Noahide laws. A beginner's attempt to observe Shabbat or Pesach in no way violates these laws.



Can you show me one place in the Torah where there is a prohibition against a non-Jew reading the Torah and following some of the teachings? Can you show me one single example?



Conversion starts with a single yearning stirred up by Hashem. Who am I to say the bet in this question isn't that single yearning?

Answer 7

a bet? pesach(passover) is serious there is no room for bets. you can go to a casino and bet but not with jewish religion!

Answer 8

PJ:



No, God doesn't 'frown' upon non-Jews trying to keep Jewish law! Non-Jews are permitted to keep Jewish law if they're doing it sicerely, to get closer to God!

Answer 9

Ok Mr. Gersh, Rambam never says every point we have about God is wrong! He simply says that our minds cannot grasp Gods mind, that God is his own mind and his own thoughts and his thinking.

Maybe you should learn the Rambam!!



Secondly, Judaism is not out to convert anyone. We are not christian. In fact a Rabbi will turn down a wannabe converter a couple times until assured of the prospects true intentions.

The story of the Bal shem tov deals with a Jew, a lost Jew. The beauty of the story lies in the fact that the Jew was doing all he knew to get closer to God. That comes nothing close to teaching a non-jew how to keep the Torah. God recieves no pleasure and actually frowns upon gentiles trying to keep Jewish law!



To the Reform Jew:

Yes, there is reformist Jews. I dont know if you are indeed one but a reform Jew holds that times change and nowadays, these old fashioned rituals aren't still expected. There are some who claim that one needs not pray to God. Perhapst once a year on Rosh hashana or/and Yom kippur and thats enough of a connection to God.

Being a reform Jew, doesnt change the fact that your stilla Jew. In fact if one was to convert, God forbid, to christianity or Islam, he is still a Jew.

Once a Jew, always a Jew.

Hope you all have a happy and Kosher passover,

Pj's





PS someone emailed me about Yehudah matzah thins or something, when i checked it up i zoomed in to the pic to see CHAMETZ descretely desplaid in the bottom corner.

Please be advised to double check any Matzah baught for Passover, look for a kosher for passover and avoid chametz foods.



In response to Mama pajama:

I respect your opinion, and am thrilled from hering the Jewish pride that seems to be oozing from you.

A important point must be made here however when talking of reform Judaism. Reform Judaism cannot be defined by your personal practices and beliefs nor your husbands or any one Reform Rabbi. Neither from a specific Reform community or thought.

I believe i have it right when i claim that the Reform Judaisms central theme is this:

Judaism is a moving, growing religion. We need not live in small farm towns and dress in old fashioned garbs. One cannot expect from the Jewish community all that has been expected in the passed. Much of "old fashioned" Judaism is, in fact, in the past and it is a new "modernized Judaism" that God wills of us today.

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The above is the basic Reform belief.

How does one chose which Mitzvot stay and which are to go?

How does one decide that Hannuka, passover and yom kippur is important, but the four fasts are not?

It goes on.....

The reform idea is that each Rabbi can analyze the circumstances of his whereabouts and era, thouroughly contemplate the ins and outs and declare one or more of the commandment, no longer nessesary. This aplies to all Mitzvot and traditions which have been sacred to the Jewish faith since Mt. Sinai.

Reformist Jew? I think Yes.

True a Reform Jew is a Jew, but he has changed Judaism.

He has reformed it.

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Please, again, you may not agree, for example, that the father can equally pass on Jewish identity to his children, but reform Judaism cannot deny this notion; cannot deny any reforming to Judaism because no line has ever been drawn.

Theres no Rabbi in the Reform community who has laid out the lines; where you can drop tradition and in what cases its not allowed.

[You claim you havent converted anyone etc. Try to understand this is in no way a proof for the REform thinking, which of course is the more Jews the better. They therefore go out of thier way (out of Judaisms way) to make conversion easier even when such conversion would not have been accepted by reform rabbis themseves only some years back!]

I can go on a lot longer but i have no time now.

Perhaps i'll write an essay or something and link it here. Email if your interested on the subject or in debating these ideas.

Kosher and happy passover to all!





PPS: Ms. COHR(?) I believe allon answered correctly. Just want to note, it is not because Judaism holds that Geniles are unworthy or something but simply because theres a path to God for ever person, no two have the same. Judaism is good for one, but worthless to another.

A gentile should not keep passover or anything else since it accomplishes nothing. The person who does so is not doing what God asked of him so can only be doing so for selfish purposes. What good is that? One needs to keep the Torah ONLY because he was commanded by God to do so. Non Jews weren't.

And yes, i know your bal shem tov story was about bringing a fellow Jew closer, i only commented because you seem to connect the story to a non-Jew keeping Judaism, which obviously cannot be compared.





Regarding a non-Jew keeping the Torah, is worthless. There is no need. God commanded the Jewish people to keep them not others. End of discussion.

A non-Jew keeping the Torah is like giving penicilin to someone whos alergic to it, only because it worked for someone else. All you are doing is worsening his condition albeit it did help another person.



Another point here is saying what God wants from us isnt defining who God is.

The rambam himself has Mishnah Torah which is a book on Gods laws, this in no way is saying what God himself is, which of course is wrong to try to define since as you have said only lessons Gods infinity.

Note that the Rambam, there, states that you can define God but only through saying what he is not. Such as saying God is not human, would not be limiting God, however that doesnt meen that God cannot be human which is limiting him by saying theres something he is not.

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There's a noticable difference between making a TuBeshvat Seder to for example accepting cremation as acceptable.

One only adds to the beauty of an already established tradition of eating the seven species by making a seder (order) of how to eat them and little passages to read out explaining the different fruits etc. and what they represent. The other goes right out and permits something which is not quite loudly prohibbited in the bible (i know it is up for debate and there are counter attacks to this but here is not the place- I trust you can see the point i make).

Also please dont say that the Tu beShvat seder was only as an example, since all other things that have changed are only within the realm of this context you wont find an example portraying the nulification of a commandment nor a lessoning if some manner to traditions and customs.

I cannot see why one wont admit that Reform Judaism is in fact reformed Judaism. Rabbinical Judaism holds that the Torah is eternal and no matter the cicumstances, binding. Reform Judaism does not.

Reformed Judaism does not, however, mean in any way that a reform Jew is not a Jew. In fact even if one was to convert out of Judaism, he would still be identified as Jewish. A shmad, yet a Jew.

I also dont know if even a Orthodox Rabbi would claim it not permissable for a non-Jew to be present at a Seder.

A non-Jew should practice Judaism, but is not barred from enjoying the Jewish culture etc. for example a non Jew would by no means be asked to leave Shabbt services, but he would not be counted in the Minyan- minimum number of men required for communal services.



Summery

-Reform belive Judaism can and should be reformed (changed with the times)

-A Jew can never convert out of Judaism. No matter the sect, a Jew is a Jew and remains a Jew (on condition, of course, that she has indeed entered Judaism).

-A gentile would be advised not to practice Judaism. Experiencing Jewish culture, is not considered practicing.